telophase: (Near - que?)
telophase ([personal profile] telophase) wrote2008-07-05 06:55 pm

Question about Korean superstition/taboo...

I seem to recall that there's a Japanese taboo against wrapping the kimono with the right side over the left, as that's the way it's done on the dead. Is there an equivalent superstition/taboo in Korea?

Because I'd like to know, if a Korean person saw this man, would they twig that something was up by the way he wears the right side over the left, or would it not matter?







And now to figure out what to go out and get for dinner. :P

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
Since I just looked at 50 or so pictures of hanboks, and all had the left side over the right, I'm guessing probably so. (Especially when you consider what he's usually up to when wearing that.)

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 12:09 am (UTC)(link)
:D This is the problem with reading material not from your culture: you can't tell if something is supposed to Mean Something or not.

I got xxxHolic 11 yesterday and read it, and despite me having read these chapter both in scanlation and now in translation, and despite KNOWING that you don't go into a traditional Japanese house with your shoes on, I totally missed that the girl who's ticked off at Yuuko because her solution isn't working runs right into the house wearing her shoes until the notes in the back pointed it out.

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 12:12 am (UTC)(link)
...

I always read the notes at the back, and have read the volume twice, and that has escaped my notice! (Though it probably escaped my attention after the stuff in the back because of everything else that goes on in xxxHolic/Tsubasa.)

But then, it's Clamp! We're allowed to not notice little things!
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[identity profile] kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 01:05 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know much about traditional Korean clothing, but the hanbok that I've seen simply couldn't be tied the "wrong" way to start with. Unlike kimono, the sides of the jacket aren't symmetrical. The jacket would have to be specially made.

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
An excellent point.

I've seen several period dramas where the clothing didn't as obviously "have" to be tied that way, but the fact that it does have to be tied that way seems to encourage the idea that there may be other overlap.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 01:24 am (UTC)(link)
I linked to a few other of the outfits in response to [livejournal.com profile] maxineofarc below. He seems to always wear them opposite the normal state.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 01:24 am (UTC)(link)
I linked to a few other of the outfits in response to [livejournal.com profile] maxineofarc below. He seems to always wear them opposite the normal state.

[identity profile] maxineofarc.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 12:36 am (UTC)(link)
It's odd, though, since that collar is sewn in, so it's not simply a matter of wrapping a robe differently. I don't know anything about Korean traditions, but it would seem odd to have to actually sew special clothes for dead folks.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 01:22 am (UTC)(link)
Hard to say. I spent some time poking about pages on Korean historical clothing, but they all did it the other way 'round.

The person in question isn't human, although he's more-or-less passing for one. What he is hasn't been revealed yet in the English-language versions. But I suspect the clothing might be significant somehow, although the characters never comment on it other than "old-fashioned clothing" - in this one (http://www.magatsu.net/pic/antique-03.jpg) and this one (http://www.magatsu.net/pic/antique-04.jpg), the closure is on the left side. In this one (http://www.magatsu.net/pic/antique-02.jpg) I see that the soul collector picture has the closing on the left also, so maybe it's a non-human thing? Unfortunately, googling for "korea(n) soul collector" has been utterly useless and I don't know the Korean term for it. *sigh*

[identity profile] yhlee.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 01:33 am (UTC)(link)
[livejournal.com profile] telophase--how urgent is this question? I can ask my mom, but unless she calls, it'll have to be by snail mail (for complicated reasons I don't have her phone # and it's an international call) and it'd probably be about two weeks before any response would reach me.

I do know that the closure used to be on the other side and then they switched over, I think in response to Chinese custom filtering into the country, or something. [livejournal.com profile] oyceter might know more, but I'll check my sources and get back to you tomorrow evening (I have a guest over today).

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 01:35 am (UTC)(link)
It's not urgent, just me wondering about it when I noticed it. :D THanks!

Huh. SO maybe it's not that he's wearing old-fashioned clothing, it's that he's wearing old-fashioned clothing? Hm.
oyceter: teruterubouzu default icon (Default)

[personal profile] oyceter 2008-07-06 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
Nooo... he's not actually wearing really old-fashioned clothing; pre-Goryeo clothing looked a little like a shirt/robe over pants (the robe opens completely like a haori or kimono). I thiiiink that kind of collar is post-left-right-switch, particularly because it's got the white lining sewn on. Aiiiee! Now I wish I had stolen that Korean costuming book from the library ;).

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 04:30 am (UTC)(link)
Curiouser and curiouser! Maybe I should just track down someone literate in Korean and ask the manhwaga! XD

[identity profile] jonquil.livejournal.com 2008-08-05 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
And then given it to me. *g*

Was it ILL?
oyceter: teruterubouzu default icon (Default)

[personal profile] oyceter 2008-08-10 02:35 am (UTC)(link)
Hee! Yeah, it was ILL. Do you want me to dig up the title?
oyceter: teruterubouzu default icon (Default)

[personal profile] oyceter 2008-08-10 02:52 am (UTC)(link)
Here you go: Lee Kyung Ja, Hong Na Young, and Chang Sook Hwan - Traditional Korean Costume

Link to my post: http://oyceter.livejournal.com/721845.html
oyceter: teruterubouzu default icon (Default)

[personal profile] oyceter 2008-07-06 04:26 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I know in general it's left-over-right in China and Korea and Japan, though I'm not aware of a taboo about the sides save in Japan. I was looking at Korean clothing books, and back in the pre-Goryeo period (um. pre 700 CE?), all the clothes were actually crossed right-over-left (you may be able to Google for images of people painted on cave walls). And then Tang China influences came and the clothing switched to left-over-right. I don't recall reading anything about the switch or if it was in response to Tang influence, though the switch happened right when Korean clothing was changing in response to Tang clothing. Also, neither book I read said anything about clothing taboos, so... no idea! Sorry it's not more helpful =(.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 04:27 am (UTC)(link)
Hmmm. I'm guessing that it's supposed to signify that Mr Yang is a very very ancient whatever-he-is. Or maybe that he's very Korean, without Chinese influence? Hrm. Makes me want to find someone who writes Korean to write a letter to the manhwaga and ask! XD

[identity profile] yhlee.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 05:27 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, I just got off the phone with my mom--I forgot she'd be calling my sister. My mom confirmed that Very Ancient Koreans tied their clothes on the other side, but she had never heard of any superstition about tying things on the other side. (I explained the kimono thing to her and she was all, Huh. So, I don't think the same thing about the dead exists at all, and if it did she would definitely know about it.) Hope this is helpful!

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 05:29 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you! :D That's good to know! I guess it's supposed to emphasize Mr Yang's connection to Old Korea or something like that.

Or maybe he's just eccentric. XD

[identity profile] yhlee.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 05:34 am (UTC)(link)
He might just be eccentric, or it might be a modern form of dress. My mom was telling me all sorts of things about how she had observed Korean clothing traditions changing over time. For example, when she got married (mid-1970s), a bride wore a yellow jeogori (I hope I'm transliterating that right) on the day of her wedding and green thereafte. (Or was it that unmarried women wore yellow and married women wore green? One of the two. My Korean is bad, so I sometimes get these things wrong.) But nowadays brides will even get married in black-with-gold-embroidery, and Korea's been influenced by the West long enough that black = death/mourning is known. (Traditionally--well, for certain values of "traditional," probably meaning Joseon and my mother's childhood--you wore white for mourning, or an undyed cloth like hemp that was basically off-white.) All this just to say that clothing has been doing a lot of evolving. I wish I could make my mom read the manhwa and ask her what she thinks the clothing signifies, because I bet context would help.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 05:42 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, fascinating! :D

Hmmm. It's so hard to say, because we're just starting to get hints of what role Mr Yang is going to play. Spoiler code in case anyone reading this hasn't read the four volumes out now: The Antique Gift Shop of the title is owned by a young woman who is heir to a shaman and has shamanic powers herself,. but who wants nothing to do with that world and denies that it exists. She majored in "Science" at college. XD Her grandmother said that if she could sell all the old antiques they had, that she'd support her granddaughter's choice.

Mr. Yang showed up as the only applicant for the position of shop assistant, and it's shown fairly early on that he can see the spirit-forms of the objects, and occasionally when things get out of control for customers who buy the objects, he steps in and fixes things. He says he hates humans, although he seems to care for the "Science!" granddaughter. In the most recent volume, we go into the granddaughter's childhood, where she was enthralled by the ghost of a small boy at one point, and we see Mr. Yang talking to the grandmother - he appears to be some sort of ancestral deity/spirit/whatever. I think he's bound in service to the family, perhaps? I don't quite remember the details and the manga is in a box in the garage right now. XD


So ... that mostly means I dunno. XD Maybe the ext volume, which is supposed to come out in August, will tell us something more.

[identity profile] vonnie-k.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 06:01 am (UTC)(link)
Hello! [livejournal.com profile] yhlee sent me as a so-called Korean expert (hahaha -- I haven't lived in Korea for 20 years but let's just go with it.)

First of all, that's a man?? *g*

As far as I know, every single Hanbok jeogori (the top/jacket with the sharp white collar you usually see in Korean attire) I've ever seen has fastening mechanism that makes it go left over right. Like various people have said, it's not like kimono where you can wrap it in either direction. There is usually a little click button sewn near the fastening so the left side is meant to go over the right -- and the collar isn't symmetrical, but designed to accommodate this fact. Of course, the only hanbok design I'm familiar with is the one from the Chosun Dynasty and for all I know, they wore their tops differently in dynasties older than that. Also, I've not heard of any particular taboo associated with wearing the top the wrong way, but then, the tops just are designed to be worn left-over-right.

I don't know who drew the picture -- is it possible that the artist just got it wrong?

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-06 06:06 am (UTC)(link)
It's from a manhwa, whatever the Korean equivalent of Japense shoujo is, so all the men are feminized, but this one absurdly so because he's not human. :D And I don't think she got it wrong, as it's repeated in all the pictures of him in traditional garb - if you look in one of my replies earlier, to [livejournal.com profile] maxineofarc, you can see other pictures of him in different outfits, all seemingly backwards. It was originally published in a weekly or monthly magazine, so I expect she'd have had many letters going "You got it wroooong!" if she had. XD

Others have mentioned that before Tang China started to influence Korea, they wore their clothing fastened the other way than today.

So ... still a mystery. Hrm.

Thank you!
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[personal profile] octopedingenue 2008-07-07 08:03 pm (UTC)(link)
GYARGH I forgot about scanning Antique Gift Shop for you, sorry! Does this post mean you've found enough pictures elsewhere?

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-07-07 08:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Yup! [livejournal.com profile] meganbmoore found her copy of volume 2, so it all worked out. Thanks anyway! :D