Hrm.

[telophase]

So, I have to admit when it comes to gift-giving I am really on the fence between Miss Manners' opinion that giving your friends and family a shopping list (gift registries, wishlists, etc.) is rather crass and has the feel of invoicing them in an impersonal fashion, and the view that quite often people miss the mark on gift-giving and lots would really like some sort of guide.

I understand the sheer relief of not having to think too hard about getting a gift that someone needs or wants, but I also understand the notion that a gift should be something that prompts you to think about your gift-ee, and select something that you think they would like and that would be a surprise, or that they wouldn't think of on their own.

I am not, however, down with the notion that not shopping off a registry is something horribly selfish, unlike this commenter on a wedding blog:



(First comment is to give context.)

Brytani writes:

We registered at Macy’s, Wal-Mart, and made one online for furniture where anyone could contribute any amount to certain items. We listed all three on all of our invitations (wedding and showers) and I can honestly say that out of dozens of gifts, we only got about four things from our registries. While I was okay with that because about half of our guests and loved ones gave us cash, I was baffled by people who would approach me and say, “we don’t want to just get something off your registry, tell us what you really need.” I mean, there were people who were just against the idea of buying from a registry in general. I don’t know if they felt it was impersonal somehow or what but I remember a handful of people asking me where I was registered and then getting me kind of random gifts from different places. It didn’t irritate me or anything (although we spent about a week afterward finding odds and ends we didn’t need and figuring out ways to return them) but I guess I thought when I registered those ways that at least most of our gifts would wind up being from them.


Fenna Blue writes:

People are against buying from a bridal registry for the same reason they will ignore a baby shower registry: Gift giving is not actually about giving YOU what YOU NEED, but it’s about THEM buying what THEY LIKE for you. Gift giving is the most selfish thing we Americans do.

ETA: *heart palpitations* Oh dear Lord! This is from another comment on the same post

We also put a PayPal link on our wedsite...

I cannot tell whether the idea of dunning your guests for donations or the concept of "wedsite" for "wedding website" is more abhorrent to me. *twitch*

Comments

[qem_chibati]

That's really scary. :(

I told people to cordinate with my dad, and had a gift registry but otherwise paid no attention and loved all my gifts.

Def didnt have a website or ppaccount though.a

[telophase]

NO YOU MUST SEND US CASH MONEY!!!! IT'S THE LEAST SELFISH THING YOU CAN DO!

[lady_ganesh]

Taaaacky.

I usually use a registry more as a, er, guideline. Like the pirate code. Part of this is that I was socialized to not talk about how much presents cost, and buying off the registry, well, you'll know then, won't you? (General you, of course.)

They weren't big when I got married (we had no Internets then), I'm not sure if I would've bothered with one or not.

[telophase]

Hee! When confronted with a registry I tend to see if there's anything on it that needs to be filled in, like if they've received five out of six saucers, and fill that set. But if whatever's left is too expensive, I tend to go for a nice picture frame.

[chisotahn]

Gosh, all of my friends who have gotten married have had registries and, as far as I know, nobody batted an eye. Then again, in my friend/family circle it's quite common to ask for some ideas on what sort of gift would be best liked for any kind of occasion. That way you have a foundation you can build on or not, as you choose.

(And, for the weddings, not clutter up tiny apartments with useless stuff!)

[telophase.livejournal.com]

I was exposed to Miss Manners at an impressionable age. :) It's why we won't be including registry info in our invitations; it feels too much to me like dunning our guests for gifts. However, in anticipation of questions asking about it*, I'm creating a website where that info will reside.


* Traditionally, the proper way to handle this is for the guests to phone the couple or the couple's parents up and ask what they'd like, at which point the couple can express a modest preference for this sort of color or pattern. And then after the wedding, unwanted gifts are discreetly returned and exchanged for stuff the couple really needs or wants.

[movingfinger.livejournal.com]

Registries have crept up in scope and significance. My understanding is that they were originally so that those who wished to buy crystal, china, or silver for the new household would get the right pattern.

We have encountered that kind of bride in the article, and as I recall we talked about it and decided that they were adults and not starting out and didn't actually need anything we could buy them. So we didn't buy a gift, because the registry stuff was all very expensive, buying someone part of a sofa is a bit off, and giving employed people cash is also a bit off.

Historically, the kind of household-goods roundup that the writer describes was done in poorer communities and reciprocation was expected. I think in the absence of that kind of social contract, in an age when most people have (a) lots of household goods and (b) little attachment to them, giving a dining room chair or coffee table isn't going to seem very wedding-like.

Lately we have been giving carefully-chosen fine art, framed, which is usually much more costly than a silver setting or china place setting and has always been enthusiastically received. But art is often something people don't buy for themselves, though they love it when they have it.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

If Toby and I were younger and just starting out together, the registry would be awesome. But as you know, we've been living on our own for years and when we combined households, we had to get rid of lots of stuff that was duplicated, so the need for stuff just isn't there.

We did, however, figure out one thing that could go on a registry - Toby was making me Brunswick stew from Cook's Country this weekend and we ran into our usual problem, that the crockpot is a little bit smaller than the crockpot used in most recipes, so we have to adjust all the measurements down by 25% or so, so the stuff will fit. In general, this isn't much of a problem because it's a perfectly functional crockpot so we can't really justify buying a new one when there's other things that need money spent on them first ... but we could research a good one and put it on a registry, and if someone bought it for us, awesome, and if not, then no biggie.

So I think the current plan is to do some research on kitchen stuff and find out the most recommended items and slap them on a registry somewhere. If people get them for us, great, if not we won't be bothered by it and will have a shopping list for future purchases.

Ramble

[emtigereyes.livejournal.com]

While I agree it would, ideally, be best to give a gift that you think they'd love/have use of without guidance, a la Miss Manners (I have a very long speel about how gift giving should be spontaneous in that "oh, they'd love this!" fashion rather than an obligation), it's not as practical for everyone you are buying gifts for... really only people you know well and visit/talk to frequently.

For example, we do a trade of names (cousins) among family on Mom's side, and we each buy a gift for whoever we drew. Since we only see/talk to each other a couple times a year, we generally do have to ask what they want, or at least what kinds of things they like (so sometimes the Miss Manners method gets used). More often though we get specifics because we don't know what they already have either.

I guess that's the conundrum with gift-giving in general. It really depends on the individuals involved and what the ultimate goal is (is the gift-giving more for the recipient's pleasure or the giver's appeasement of conscience).

Re: Ramble

[janni.livejournal.com]

If you don't know someone well, asking friends and family what they like is a possibility, too.

[wyrdness.livejournal.com]

I've only been to two weddings when I've been old enough to worry about gift giving issues, but as it turned out I was lucky enough to be spared the decision of what to get both times.

One of them was my sister's wedding when she and her now husband had already been together for 7 years beforehand and pointedly told all the guests not to buy them anything because they had nowhere to put it, but that if we really had give them something they'd take money as a substitute because they were saving for a new kitchen. Made things so much easier. The other time was my mum's wedding, when she rung me up about a week beforehand and asked "would you like to go to a wedding?" - She was perfectly fine with not receiving gifts under the circumstance. XD

I think that if I had to buy a gift I'd prefer to be given a list on the understanding that I wasn't expected to get anything from a specific shop, especially if I could get it cheaper elsewhere. However, I'd probably be really ticked off if I was given a list of nothing but ridiculously expensive items I know the couple wouldn't bother about under any other circumstances. I view wedding gifts as essential items, not as an excuse for an early, one-sided, Christmas haul. I'd also be fine with giving money instead of gifts if they'd been living together for a long time and didn't have any specific needs but could probably use the money towards other, bigger, purchases (like my sister's kitchen).

[telophase.livejournal.com]

In the Miss Manners book I read over the weekend (compilation of her columns on the subject), I was appalled to learn that apparently there's a trend of people registering for very expensive stuff, with the expectation that they will return it to the store for cash, buy the cheaper version, and pocket the rest.

Kind of makes me want to throw it all to the winds and go live in a commune or something. :)

[janni.livejournal.com]

I'm with Miss Manners here. (But then, I would be. We actually took the form of our marriage proposal from one of her columns, too.) Way too much sense of entitlement around weddings in general. I think having a registry if someone requests info about one, but not foisting it on anyone who doesn't, makes lots of sense.

We seem, maybe because it serves advertisers well, to have more and more sense of entitlement around gifts, and more and more of a notion that not giving the perfect gift is somehow wrong, or some sort of crime.

If I get a gift I don't like or have a use for, I keep it for a tasteful span of time, and then quietly give it away so someone else can use it without mentioning doing so to the giver.

[janni.livejournal.com]

Of course, I'm also of the opinion that if there are necessities a couple needs so badly they have no choice but to specify exactly what they need, perhaps they shouldn't be having so large scale a wedding as tends to go with many of the pushier pushes for gift registries in the first place. If you can't afford to buy your own dishes, you can't afford to spent 25K on a wedding, either.

[mscongeniality.livejournal.com]

In our case, we had to get rid of many of my housewares when I moved in due to kashrut issues. BUT everything he has is either his mother's hand me downs or stuff he bought cheap because money was beyond tight. So, we not only need pretty much everything, we need two of everything. Yes, we can do it ourselves over time, but right now I'm seeing the registry as a godsend that will allow me to stop eating off of godawful ugly china while freeing up money to do things like buy enough shelving to accommodate our massive book collection.

[jinian.livejournal.com]

I would support a registry in cases like yours where people actually need the housewares, definitely.

On the other side of the equation, if you're able to make bookshelves yourself, Book-Eating Bookshelves (http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/bib/shelves.htm) are cheaper and better for the purpose than any commercial ones I've seen. We used 1x6 boards and just drilled holes for pegs rather than screwing the shelves in, and they work great. (There are of course many reasons that people might not be able to do this, but they are so good and relatively cheap that I wanted to let you know about them anyway.)

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Makes perfect sense in your case! In our case, while we have two sets of dishes, shaped differently, that each serve four, and one day I would love to have a full set of eight dishes that all look alike and stack together neatly, it's a low priority as we have rarely have more than 1 or 2 people over, and when we do have more over, we either go out to eat or order pizza. I think this Thanksgiving will be the first time in 3 years of cohabiting we actually use all the plates for a meal.

I cannot believe how few books we own now (comparatively). I've defined myself as a book-hoarder for so long that repeated rounds of destashing and switching to ebooks for the most part have changed me into someone whose books all fit on the shelves we own with...*gasp*...space left over! Inconceivable!

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

So, I have to admit when it comes to gift-giving I am really on the fence between Miss Manners' opinion that giving your friends and family a shopping list (gift registries, wishlists, etc.) is rather crass and has the feel of invoicing them in an impersonal fashion, and the view that quite often people miss the mark on gift-giving and lots would really like some sort of guide.

Yes. Unfortunately I think in today's wedding climate you really can't win. Either you have a registry and have to include lots of items you really don't need (or else it will not be large enough), or you don't and end up with things like Precious Moments figurines. And putting "no gifts" on the invitations (in addition to not being approved by Miss Manners) will probably result in a)someone being offended and b)gifts anyway.

I suppose you could register for a bunch of basic useful stuff plus a few things you actually need, then donate everything except the latter to charity. But that would no doubt offend people too.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

When friends of ours registered at Target, one of them went around zapping whatever he thought was funny so they ended up with hugely expensive giant TVs and six-packs of Mountain Dew on their list. I have a feeling something of the sort may end up on ours!

[chomiji]

Shaking down the guests for cash and gifts is right out, but most of them want to give something. So you set something up to make it simple for the folks who don't know you super-well and want to give you something reasonable, and you don't rub it in everyone's faces.

We had a registry, but then, we were only 27 (me) and 25 (him) when we got married, and although we had lived together for a couple of years, it was in the context of a group house, so we really did need the "now we are civilized adults" stuff. And our wedding was on a shoestring: I made my own dress, and the event was catered by some enterprising college students whose families were members of our synagogue. (And my mother never forgave me for "shaming her in front of the family" by not letting her go into debt to pay for a fancy affair, so no matter what you do, someone will be upset!)

I don't think we put the info in the invites, though. We registered at a single place - primarily for our china - and my mother gave out the info when people asked her. We made sure that our china pattern was something for which an individual with an OK job could afford to give one place setting (Mikasa Classic Flair, in case someone is wondering what such a thing would look like), and we also added an assortment of non-pricey kitchen gadgets that we actually needed.

Things went pretty well. We filled out the remainder of the china set with the cash gifts we got, and we also received things like a lovely set of appliqued and embroidered table linens. However, for some unknown reason, we also got three cheese bells. IIRC, we used to host a lot of parties back then ... .

[tool-of-satan.livejournal.com]

We have the same china pattern. Which we never use. :)

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Ah, pretty plates!

I was maid of honor for a friend years back, and they received a billion juice glasses, more than they had space for. They also received, from a relative, a cutting board that had a silver cow head on the top left corner and the cow's butt on the bottom right. The relative was close enough that they felt they couldn't give it away or discreetly dispose of it otherwise.

My mom, I found out not too long ago, just wanted the sort of wedding where you go to the JP. Her mother, on the other hand, was appalled at that so Mom let her take over and plan a church wedding with reception. It wasn't a huge wedding by any means, but my grandmother hand-addressed all their invitation and was happy as a bug in a rug doing so, I believe.

[riofriotex.livejournal.com]

OK - just speaking as probably just about your oldest friend on here (54): I love registries. I am a terrible gift giver and have no idea what to give.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

:) We'll have one for the people who'd like to buy from one. I'm just hoping that people understand we consider not giving a gift to be a valid option.

[tempest-strife.livejournal.com]

As for a wedding website: Consider me. With Ari and your wedding incoming,I have NOOO plausible way of making it out to either. A website helps with things like where to send cards and things to help you get your life 2.0 started.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Oh, we shall have a website, it will just not be called a "wedsite"! :)

(wedding.magatsu.net, although there's nothing there yet but placeholder text. I'll also be putting in a password-protected page for things like addresses and give the password out once it's actually up.)

[tprjones.livejournal.com]

"Gift giving is the most selfish thing we Americans do."

Wow. The twisted thinking in behind that statement has so many layers. It's a bit bogglesome.

Me, I don't give nor receive regularly scheduled gifts. I can't recall the last time I gave someone a gift actually on their birthday or Christmas or whatever. Instead I'm always ready for that brilliant idea that results in the absolutely perfect gift for someone, and when it comes along I do it. Right then and there. No need for the calendar to give me permission. I give pretty much the usual number of gifts one would expect to various friends and family, it's just they can come along without warning at any time of year. And when they do it'll be perfect.

It's rather nice, really, to not have the pressure and end up getting something meh just because it's time to do so.

Is that selfish of me? Perhaps. But then as an American I am apparently not qualified to judge.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

How dare you consider the wants and needs of your intended victim before selfishly pressing a gift on them!