Mangatalk: part 2

[telophase]

This is again nothign formal, just tossing something up to see what people have to say. This is in response to kate_nepveu's comments here comparing Fullmetal Alchemist to Saiyuki.




FMA scan downloaded from ... uh, somewhere. Saiyuki scan stolen from kate_nepveu. read right-to-left.

I tried to get a roughly comparable scene in both - two people talking, no real establishing shots, same sort of level of seriousness.








The linework in FMA is simpler - less variation in line width, the shapes are less complex. There are more areas of solid black. There's more detail in Saiyuki, more tone work, and more random texture added with pen, before the tone is applied.

Thoughts, anyone? On anything? I don't have any serious thoughts or conclusions yet; just what I've said (and I have to attend two meetings this afternoon, so will be gone a good part of it).

Comments

[the-z.livejournal.com]

Both have very static layouts for the panels, but the conversation in the Saiyuki page seems more expressive. I think that's due mainly to the different head views.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Yeah. And Minekura's more interested in getting across subtle emotional states and people hurting inside who are so very careful not to break their shells. Ed and the priest, OTOH, are both various degrees of "cocky," and while the Philosopher's Stone has a great degree of emotional impact for Ed, we have to bring that knowledge to the scene to be able to realize that his cocky grins are hiding something deep. While in the Saiyuki page, we can tell from the postures and looking at each other and carefully not looking at each other, that there's a conversation going on beneath the actual words.

In short, the Saiyuki boys are played by better actors. XD

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, I'd like to comment, but I was overwhelmed by OMGTHEIRLOVEISSOPURE!!!!!1ELEVENTYBILLION!!!!

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Obviously, you are a discerning woman who can see straight to the important part. XD

this icon will never not be funny. and true.

[octopedingenue]

Gojyo gazing anxiously up at Hakkai in panel 3 kills me. Kills me DEAD.

Ummmmmm, I'll make that about art somehow...the "Fullmetal Alchemist" conversation is about the very important words they're saying (alchemy, power of miracles, philosopher's stone) and so the panels are filled with speech bubbles, even getting their own panel mid-page, and the head/shoulders get the clearest shots because people use those to talk with their mouths. The "Saiyuki" conversation is about the very important words they're NOT saying (omglove), so the expressiveness of their body language gets an entire panel to itself, as do their respective facial expressions in silence devoid of speech bubbles. When the speech bubbles do appear again, they're behind the heads of the speakers (Gojyo's almost looks like it's floating away on his cigarette smoke), emphasizing that they're hard to say and that Hakkai and Gojyo aren't looking directly at each other (I know the behind-the-head panels are doing other things here too but I can't put my finger on what it is). When the very important words do finally show up, they're so important that they get a giant final panel all to themselves.

[oyceter]

Yes!

My thoughts were something like:

Ooo, interesting, FMA, ok... following speech bubbles, huh, black panel.

Scroll down.

EEEEEEEE HAKKAI AND GOJYO OMG ANGST WAH!

Ahem. I love that page.

And to be more serious, I think it works because of the way she almost repeats the profiles in the second column, but with some variation, so that it starts with Hakkai's profile, goes to a 3/4 look at Gojyo, then to a 3/4 look at Hakkai, and then Gojyo's profile. And, of course, the simplicity of the two profiles in the first and largest panel. Then the fade to black, with only speech, emphasizing the fact that THEIRLOVEISSOPURESQUEEE!!!

Or, er, right. That it is a big weighty question because theirloveissopure!!!.

[herchuckness.livejournal.com]

That variation of line width is actually something I adore about Minekura's work. It really hit me with this closeup (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/herchuckness/wa/sexykubo1.png) of Kubota from Wild Adapter. The linework there is so compelling, especially around the mouth/chin, I couldn't stop staring at it. I find myself doing that a lot with her series. The page you have here from FMA doesn't stop my eye the way the Saiyuki one does, the former feels more... I dunno, smooth somehow. Saiyuki is more uneven, but it gives me something to get caught on. My eyes kind of slide off the FMA page. I'm sure that has nothing whatever to do with the fact I'm obsessed with all things Minekura. Nope. Not at all.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. And you ahve thie line ebbing and flowing, wrapping around and defining the big white space of his cheek and nose - and your mind supplies the bumps and valleys present in the cheek and nose, so that flat white space has a different feel than the whitespace outside of his face.

[kate_nepveu]

Random comments:

FMA: the transition between panels 3-4 is not as good as it could be; I go straight across rather than up. If Cornello's robe were white, rather than his sash, perhaps it would work better. The random black behind the two of them in the last two panels is a little odd physically (what, did someone turn out the lights?) but does make their faces pop (and the diagonal bit of light is nice from a visual path POV). (Actually, does the light in panel 1, on the wall, make any physical sense?)

The Saiyuki boys really do have better mouths, don't they? I think you'd commented on it before and I hadn't really seen it until now. The FMA characters just get a line, two if their mouth is open; but the Saiyuki boys have actual lips. (The Saiyuki boys also have better, or at least more detailed, hair.) Their page also has more rhythm, it seems to me (and lookit the smoke from Gojyo's cigarette)--it's very linear overall but their opposite-facing, err, faces looking sideways breaks that and slows things down.

In comparison--maybe not objectively, but in comparison--the FMA page looks crowded. Both use panelling to bring the characters' faces together when they aren't physically.

Wow, that was random.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

I think in panel 4 of FMA, if Ed's balloon were pushed left a bit more, so that the white of the sash could take your eye up from that lower corner to Cornello's balloon, it would work. As it it, you're supposed to realize that the edge of the panel is a brake, and to start the next panel over again from the top. I think very little of the lighting makes any physical sense - it's all to aid the composition IMHO. But I really like the line from panels 5-6, form Ed balloon 1 across his eyes to Ed balloon 2, to Cornello's fingers and to his eye ... at which point you realize that his grin, which was natural in the rest of the page, is suddenly frozen, because he knows what Ed is going to say next.

.... and I just realized why the mangaka breaks that line going into panel 6 - the shadow under Cornello's nose and the line of his mouth makes up Ed's other eye! So you get the full effect of Ed leveling his gaze and drilling it into Cornello, without really realizing why. Cool. :)


re: Saiyuki - and this page isn't even a really good example of the mouths. XD The lines that go into the mouths here are pretty uniform - there's some really sensitive images out there with variation in line weight that just adds so much to the mouths. THe linework in general has movement, and gets slightly blobby, and breaks. You almost never get a long, unbroken line in Minekura.

[kate_nepveu]

So you get the full effect of Ed leveling his gaze and drilling it into Cornello, without really realizing why. Cool. :)

Ah, yes; I'd seen that they were two halves of one face, but hadn't quite gotten that part of it. Cool. =>

Now I can't decide between _Saiyuki_ vol 9 art commentary and reading the Japan history that Chad dug up for me for its Heian sections. Man, competing obsessions . . .

[telophase.livejournal.com]

I want to read Genji and do manga commentary, but I reeeeeeally need to be doing comic pages ARG.

[kate_nepveu]

La la la la la I don't have any legal research I should be doing la la la la la la!

Hm...

[(Anonymous)]

Both are interesting. Although I see that mostly girls are posting (I is a guy) they are instantly saying that sayuki (whatever its called) is better. I think yaoi is messed up and shounen manga is better. But that's not the point of this post.

FMA: Clean. Very clean. I like that it manga. I don't like stuff do detailed, it makes everything seem more confusing, if you ask me. It also makes it look messy, and unproffesional in some ways. (about to be attacked by fangirls.)

Sayuki: Messy. Crowded. It's good, but isn't nice to my eyes.

Both are good.
And I have no idea what sayuki is. Due to the fact every other post has something to do with the characters being in love, I assume its yaoi. If it is not, I'm sorry.

Re: Hm...

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Saiyuki is not yaoi. There is a lot of fanservice in it, and a lot of fans who slash the characters, but no canon yaoi or even shounen-ai.

I suggest you go to my LJ memories and read some of the posts in the Saiyuki analysis topics before assuming that the pages are cluttered and messy - I've got at least one essay, and a number of links to other essays on the art and storytellings tyle that reveal the pages that are cluttered at first glance are heavily structured, and how that style suits the type of story it is - which is basically a shounen manga told in a shoujo style.

I say this as a fan of both FMA and Saiyuki - the art and storytelling styles are very different, and they each have their advantages and disadvantages, and it depends on the sort of story that's being told.

Re: Hm...

[telophase.livejournal.com]

* Although I have doubts that non-LJ users come back and look for answers to many of these, since they can't get comment notifications. So this serves mostly as an answer for other poeple who come through and read this.

Re: Hm...

[telophase.livejournal.com]

* Oops, one more thing I forgot to add: when you see people using things like "!!!!!1ELEVENTYBILLION!!!!" and "THEIRLOVEISSOPURESQUEEE!!!", it's a sign that they are making fun of the work, not taking the declarations of love seriously. Real insane fangirls tend to take themselves much more seriously.

[hollywoodwine.livejournal.com]

Err--I know that I'm posting just a little late... but I think that an artist can be as simple or detailed as they want as long as they follow the principles of art. Rule of thirds, focal point, lines or objects that lead the eyes to the subject, repetition, difference... the whatnot.