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"Someone to protect" in Japanese
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little_details there's a question about the "someone to protect" concept in anime and manga and if there's a direct translation (because it's always translated in that way) or if it's a cultural concept, or what. Any ideas/thoughts on the matter?
We won't get into my rant against this and why it makes me want to throw a boot through the screen when it shows up, but hey...
little_details there's a question about the "someone to protect" concept in anime and manga and if there's a direct translation (because it's always translated in that way) or if it's a cultural concept, or what. Any ideas/thoughts on the matter?
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But now I want to hear it!I am a sucker for it myself, as I am a giant sap.no subject
When I hear the "someone to protect" phrase, the first thing I think of is the fourth Inuyasha movie, because for a long time the only footage/trailer for the movie available (which I played over and over and over, so it haunted me a little) was a flashback clip of Sesshomaru & Inuyasha's father asking Sesshomaru, "Do you have something to protect?" And of course that turned out to be the main theme of the movie, having someone to protect and how far you would go to protect them. Sesshomaru's a bastard and he and Inuyasha spend half the movie fighting each other instead of the real villain because of their OMG brother hate, but at the key moment Sesshomaru remembers his father's question, thinks about Jaken and Rin, and joins Inuyasha to bring the lethal bad guy smackdown. One of numerous instances of this specific theme, and it is both widespread and specific enough that I'm very interested in how this discussion you've linked to will turn out.
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It's incredibly paternalistic, and drives me mad, because, broadly speaking, it assumes that the girl (and yes, most of the time it's a girl) who the speaker is saying it to is helpless and can't do anything herself. The power in this relationship is with the protector, and, frankly, I fail to see what's appealing about a relationship in which a partner is that dependent - they're not a partner, they're a subordinate.
It makes more sense in some contexts - in the Inu-Yasha one, frex, Sesshoumaru is thinking of Jakken and Rin. He's got a part-feudal-lord, part-military-commander thing going on with Jakken, and it makes sense there because part of the whole implied contract in feudalism and in the military chain of command is that the commander takes responsibility for those beneath his command. Rin is a child, and as yet cannot protect herself. So there, I don't have a problem. Same with Kougaiji and Lirin in Saiyuki - Lirin's a good fighter, but her intelligence stats leave a bit to be desired and her impulsive behavior leads her into danger way more often that Kou is happy with, so she does still need a bit of parental caring there.
and we're totally not getting into Kou's fucked-upness and desire to hold what little family he's got near him. XDManji and Rin in Blade of the Immortal. Same sort of thing - Rin's going up against some badass kenshi and knows she can't handle it herself and hired Manji specifically to protect her. And he views her as more of a kid sister than as a potential romantic partner (I've only read up to the Dark Horse graphic novel releases; don't spoil me for anything further XD), but she's growing and discovering her own strengths and will one day be a partner strong enough for a badass kenshi or one ilk or another. waves tiny Rin/Anotsu flagMy objection pretty much boils down to the fact that what makes relationships more intriguing to me is a base assumption of equality: Lord Peter Wimsey/Harriet Vane, and pretty much all the major relationships in Bujold's Vorkosigan books are what immediately spring to mind. I want to see stories about people who are either facing the world side-by-side or who are learning hoe to compensate for each other's weakneses, not a relationship in which one side has the power and is the protector and the other side is the protected. That's a parental relationship, not a romantic one. I don't find it romantic, I find it confining.
(Actually, the literary examples I cited above have a theme of trying to find that base equality, but the desirableness of an equal partner is a given in both; it's how to get there that the characters aren't sure of.)
I also hate the seme/uke dichotomy with the burning passion of a thousand fiery stars. Gosh, I wonder why. :D
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I was in a discussion on another forum in which several (male) posters maintained that Rin had made a terrible mistake by ditching Manji to follow Anotsu alone: she was being flat-out stupid, she'd betrayed her agreement with him (huh?), this act proved she was still only a dumb kid and diminished her character, Manji was the only sensible one in the equation, sna sna sna.
My response pointed out Hyakurin's challenge to Rin (never going to be strong if you always have a tough guy protecting you) and the fact that with only the best of intentions, Manji has constantly tried to assert authority over the course of Rin's revenge in a way that almost obviates her emotional journey and distorts what she's truly trying to accomplish. She tells him plainly that she has to TALK to her enemy, and he does nothing but scoff. So at this point Rin really has no alternative but to go it alone, and the mangaka set it up that way with considerable care. Of course Manji isn't a jerk (at least in this respect) or trying to hold Rin back--he has been training her in weapons technique, after all. He just can't formulate her quest in any other way than "See Anotsu, kill Anotsu."
To their credit, these guys backtracked a bit and admitted that (being guys) they had been considering only Manji's point of view rather than Rin's, and that she had a good reason for what she did after all. That's what I like so much about BotI's storyline; it can deal with that stereotyped situation of tough guy/tender girl in a way that doesn't fall into any of the usual traps and gives each side of the gender debate equal though not identical consideration. Masculinizing women or feminizing men for a fictional illusion of equality doesn't say anything at all; it's portraying the sexes as they are and still maintaining the balance that feels right. But obviously that's a tricky job.
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I like the bit at the beginning of the most reacent Dark Horse compilation, where Rin's all "Kill them because blah blah blah." and he's all "Uh, WTF?" and she's finally "If you don't kill them they'll kill me." and he's all "Yo, that's all I need ta know!" *attack*
Wee bit of paraphrasing there, of course. XD
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Manji + bare-chested + chained to the wall = Rrrowwwll!
I have NO idea why all these fanboys have been bitching about the prison storyline. ;-)
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*kicks the comment button*
Speaking as someone raised in an Asian culture? Welcome to my life. You're not going to find purely Western equality in the majority of Eastern pressure-cooker cultures. It's a current that's hard to go against, even removed from Asia. One of the few generalizations I feel comfortable making.
As for it -always- happening, and it -always- being the boy? Nope. Perhaps Japanese anime/manga has gotten wiser with age. Characters like Ruki on Digimon Tamers, Riza on Fullmetal Alchemist, or even a number of Gundam women have expressed this sort of sentiment. They might be exceptions to the rule, but I can't call it gender-specific or paternalistic (especially when the 'object' person doesn't actually need protecting. And can kill everybody. Which happens.) If anything, if there's objectification going on here, then those female characters are equally guilty of it. Nor is it purely feudal or romantic, though it might encompass all those. So, hmm, it's not quite what I meant... perhaps because I've seen it more widely? *shrugs*
And to throw something out there, what of Rian and Miles? Lois McMaster Bujold did base the Cetagandan culture on more of an Eastern-style template. It took me a while to swallow that this was a valid relationship (that he remembered years afterwards, even) because everyone else's was so equal and well, long-term. Or Taura and Miles, eeesh. Yeah, it makes me itch. Power imbalances are breeding grounds for abuse, in my opinion. But (at least in fiction!) I'm not so sure that the sentiment is always invalid, or that it's always one-way.
Gah, I'm rattling on and on. I hope you don't mind, this is all really meaty and intriguing.
Re: *kicks the comment button*
Re: *kicks the comment button*
You're not going to find purely Western equality in the majority of Eastern pressure-cooker cultures.
And this has exactly what to do with my rant? The West has no monopoly on equal relationships. There are PLENTY of Western examples in fiction that have inequality assumed.
As for it -always- happening, and it -always- being the boy?
Um, I think you're reading far more into the rant than I wrote. Nowhere did I say that it always happens or that it's always boy=protector, girl=protectee. I said that when it happens it's usually the boy, but I can't figure out where on earth you got the idea that I think it always happens and that it's always the boy?
OK, now to the meat of your post. :) I usually find specifically romantic relationships to be more interesting to read about when the two characters are equal and/or are struggling to find that equality. There are any number of types of relationship to be writen about, and a good writer will find a way to make it complex and not what it seems on the surface. That being said, your specific example - I haven't re-read Cetaganda in quite a while, so I'm hazy on the details, but IIRC the relationship between Miles and Rian was never a romantic one. Also, it's an example, I think, of what I mentioned where the strengths of one person make up for the shortcomings of another. In the context of their strange, uneasy relationship, Rian has the political and social power, but she doesn't have the freedom to upset social order and to cut through strata of power and society in quite the way Miles does. The Cetagandan empire is also written as ancient and stagnant, to an extent, while Miles comes from the confluence of two younger, upstart societies and isn't bound by the same conventions as she is. I think that's explicitly symbolized when Miles cuts the hair of one of the haut ladies (forgive me, I can't remember if it's Rian or another one). She's trapped and held prisoner by her hair, which is a symbol of Cetagandan protocol and bindings, and while it would never occur to her to cut her hair, that it was even an option, Miles has no such problem and does the Gordian-knot thing and whacks it off. I think that moment symbolizes the theme of the whole book, as well as Miles' relationship with the Cetagandan Empire and its citizens, including Rian.
So it's not really an unequal relationship - one side helps the other.
I don't have a problem with power imbalance when it comes to a matter of rank - those are inherently unbalanced relationships (go back to my Sesshoumaru example). It's when it's power on a personal level - when you ahve a brash young man declaring that he will keep someone safe and that she doens't have to worry because he will protect her. That wraps her up and puts her on a pedestal, and I just don't find those relationships interesting to read about or watch. I prefer to watch ones in which the partners spur each other to grow - and risk growing apart - or when they're standing shoulder-to-shoulder facing the world.
The Saiyuki manga is a good point in example - the friendship between the four characters is complex, and always changing. On the surface, the Sanzo/Goku relationship is unequal, but when you look deeper into it, Sanzo needs Goku perhaps more than Goku needs him. And Sanzo doesn't cater to Goku or try to protect hi from the world, in fact he boots him in the butt and makes him face the world when needed (and vice versa).
In Revolutionary Girl Utena, the Utena/Anthy relatinship seems on the surface to be a protector/protectee one, but as you get deeper into the story, it's yet another of the stereotypes that's turned upside down.
I probably could come up with a few more exmaples, but I've got to cut this short and run up to the Ref desk here. :)
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