telophase: (Gin wants to ikorose your heart)
telophase ([personal profile] telophase) wrote2008-08-18 11:38 pm

RPG/Drizzt/Forgotten Realms rambling, part the first

As some of you know already, I've recently been reading some old-skool RPG novels, mostly in an attempt to find out why the character of Drizzt Do'Urden is so incredibly popular.

The answer is...so far, mostly the hell if I know. Well, not quite. I think if I'd encountered him at a much younger age (say, 14), when I had not so much discernment in my literary tastes, I'd have been totally into him, fluffy little angstbunny that he is. Now, not so much.

While I'm reading these books, I keep getting distracted from the character of Drizzt by the overall badness of the setup. I'll admit that I've never played Forgotten Realms, which these books are tie-in novels for, or for that matter any RPG that hadn't been seriously altered by the GM and players into something with a hell of a lot more internal consistency than your general off-the-shelf RPG. This is a side effect of being an Anthropology geek in a group of friends made up of Anthropology and Classics geeks.[1] So I am, perhaps, a wee bit more sensitive to this sort of thing and seeing cultural groups in the game world that are very obviously Earth cultural groups with the serial numbers filed off and a thin coat of paint slopped on DRIVES ME UP THE FUCKING WALL.

Dungeons and Dragons and its ilk started out based on The Lord of the Rings (with the serial numbers hastily filed off after legal threats from the Tolkien estate, IIRC), and accreted various trappings of a sort-of Heroic Age as viewed through a 20th-century lens. The idea is that you get to be the hero (and the Hero, in true mythic fashion) of the story, battling incredible odds and fearsome enemies, and in the end, if you your character survives, you get the loot and the girl and the acclaim.[2] So they took the basic ideas in Tolkien's work, removed all the things that gave it depth, consistency, and meaning, and went to town with the rest.

There's been all sorts of creative spinoffs and re-imaginings since, but the basic heroic ideal is still going strong.[3]


Forgotten Realms

Anyway. So far I've read two and a half books in the Forgotten Realms wrold - Homeland and half of Exile, the first two books in the Drizzt Do'Urden backstory, and The Crystal Shard, which is teh first book Drizzt showed up in, as an ensemble character. Wherever it was that I read that TCS was his first appearance said that Drizzt was a secondary character, but I think whoever wrote that description was unfamiliar with the concept of an ensemble cast, which is what it really is. There's an ostensible hero, who even kills a dragon with serious help, but it's structured to be similar to an RPG, where you have a group of 5 or 6 players working as a group to get through the plot, each with his or her own piece of the action.

I should, perhaps, mention that these books were all published around the end of the 1980s and the beginning of the 1990s and one would hope that some of the skeevier racial and gender imbalances have been fixed by now in more recent game worlds and books, but I am not entirely optimistic about that.

As you can see, my basic acquaintance with the Forgotten Realms world isn't very much, only what I've gleaned from the books. There's a mishmash of characters and cultures that makes no logical sense whatsoever. The Crystal Shard is set in a remote frontier area named Ten-Towns that's near both mountains and tundra (it might actually be on tundra, but I'm not sure), where ten towns eke out a living around a set of lakes wherein live knucklehead trout. The entire economy seems to be based on said trout, especially on the scrimshaw they produce on trout bones.

I'm going to repeat that. Scrimshaw. On trout bones. And no, there's no mention of the Great Whale-Trout, the Enormous Bony-Plated Trout, the Narwhaltrout, or anything that would lead us to believe these trout are any larger than your average trout. And the only scrimshander[4] we see at work in the entirety of the Ten Towns is a halfling, who's pretty lazy.

These ten town are named things like Bryn Shander, Termalaine, Targos, Caer-Konig, Caer-Dineval, and, inexplicably, Bremen. And the lakes they're on are prefaced things like "Maer" and "Lac," resulting in a complete linguistic mishmash. And not in a good way, either. You tend to get a linguistic mishmash in areas that have been overrun by various cultural groups in their history,[5] but there's no sense of hsitory here.

This tundralike wasteland and nearby mountains also support a large population of creatures including the wild tundra yeti, a tribe of giants, a colony of dwarves, goblins, and several other RPG random-encounter monsters. Plus several tribes of barbarians - called "barbarians," because everybody in an RPG world is defined by their class first and any other affiliation second. The barbarian tribes are loosely-disgused Native American tribes with Scandinavian characteristics stapled on top, who also occasionally herd reindeer. (Nobody in these games ever seems to recognize that the Vikings weren't rampaging tribal barbarians 100% of the time, but instead were farmers during the growing season, supplementing their subsistence farming with raiding or trading as the opportunity struck. It's called a REALISTIC ECONOMY guys!)

Needless to say, there are no women or children in any of these. Oh, they're present in the sense that part of the townsmen's motivation is to protect the chillun' and wimmenfolk, and they're referred to in the plural as in "The women and children ran towards the boats, away from the fighting" (not an actual sentence, just one I amde up that's similar to many), but there's no sense otherwise that there's anything to a manly, heroic life doing scrimshaw and fishing and bashing random monsters that involves the other two-thirds of the human race.

"But wait!" I hear you say! "What about Cattie-brie?!" What about her? She is technically a character in the sense that she has a name and an occasional line, but her entire utility is to make it seem not so out of the ordinary that Bruenor, the major dwarf character, would adopt a human boy, since he'd adopted her. And she gets to flirt with the boy alter, when they're grown up, and then be all understanding when he heads off to fight a dragon or something. But more on her later.

Actually, more on everything later. I've wiffled on enough as is, and it's getting late. You'll have to wait for my SO FASCINATING THOUGHTS on racial skeeviness, horrible naming, and Salvatore's penchant for just making up words without using a dictionary later, when I can type some more.

I'll jsut leave you with this thought:

I took The Universal Mary-Sue Litmus Test for Drizzt Do'Urden and he got a 79 where anything over a 50 is scored as "Kill it dead."




----
[1] When we played the boardgame version of Civilization - yes, Virginia, there used to be, way back in the mists of prehistory, a boardgame version - we'd argue over the correct name of each city we founded. And I once threatened to play the Greeks and name every single city Alexandria. I sort of wish I'd gotten to do that.

[2] It seems not to have occurred to the originators, and to lots of game designers since, that girls might want to play, or that girls (and some boys) playing might want to see competent female characters that serve in roles other than Evil Queen, Buxom Wench, or Accessory.

[3] Did you know there's an animated Dragonlance thing? I saw the DVD cover in Blockbuster the other day! Anyone here seen it? How bad is it?

[4] Used by R.A. Salvatore, which means, judging by his track record of word usage, that it may not actually be a word.

[5] Torpenhow Hill, in other words, "Hillhillhill Hill"

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 04:49 am (UTC)(link)
It's been a while since I read them, but from what I recall, you've only scratched the tip of the iceberg.

I almost commented saying "but for what it's worth, i do seem to remember cattie-Brie getting to do more later." Then i tried to remember what she did, and came up an absolute blank, but from what I remember of other things going on in later books, and I realize that, nope, it probably isn't anything to write home about.

(But you know, for an English major focusing on writing and the classics with full double minors in psychology and philosophy, they did make for nice escapist reading that didn't require the brain power that didn't exist to be spared for it.)

[identity profile] wintersweet.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
Linguistic mishmash drives me NUUUUTS. C. doesn't get it, but when I run into a story where characters from the SAME CULTURE are called Sarah, Edward, Madison, Prudence, Elyzabyth, A'tryn'iel, Sertialen, Bkar, and Finghoo, I start throwing things.

(I mean, I wouldn't if there were some reason for it, but there never IS a reason for it.)

Pet peeve. Sigh. And yeah, some enforced Anthro 101 would significantly raise the level of fantasy worldbuilding. (SF these days is usually a little less egregiously bad, I think, but it's definitely not totally off the hook in that department.)

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 04:57 am (UTC)(link)
She's actively completely useless in this one. That's one of the things I'm getting to in the subsequent post. XD

(I understand escapism!)

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 05:00 am (UTC)(link)
The towns are supposed to be on some sort of trading route, so that you get desert-dwellers passing through, and I don't know if the mishmash is supposed to be reflective of that or not. It's not very good at it.

OTOH, from my understanding your average caravan isn't going to stick with the goods from beginning to end anyway - so you WON'T get desert-dwellers in the tundra on any sort of trade route, because they sold the cargo on some time ago, and bought a new cargo to take back home. You might get the occasional traveler like ibn Battuta, but not much more.
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (Sanzo: HEADACHE)

[identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 05:35 am (UTC)(link)
The barbarian tribes are loosely-disgused Native American tribes with Scandinavian characteristics stapled on top, who also occasionally herd reindeer.

*grabs paperbag, sits in corner and hyperventilates quietly*

Stuff like the early Dragonlance and Shannara books are what pretty much started bouncing me off modern high fantasy in the late 80s -- I'm sure I would have eaten those books up with a spoon when I was, say, twelve, but by the time I was in my late teens and early twenties I was growing increasingly impatient with picking up book after book with such blatant file marks on everything, and the periodic attempts in the years since to peek back in via whatever top-seller was being recced by friends as the latest, greatest thing DID NOT HELP matters any.

(Thank heavens I am finally getting much better recs from much better friends; I was starting to think my increasing allergy to the genre was reaching near-fatal levels.)

[identity profile] tokyoghoststory.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 05:57 am (UTC)(link)
THIS IS WHY I CAN NEVER READ FANTASYYYYY. oh man. such a good laugh though. i'm facinated! i can't wait for more

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 06:04 am (UTC)(link)
Yes. She becomes...actively The Chick (and not in the cool way) and later The Object For Angst. IIRC, in the early books, she doesn't even get to go out to fight with the guys and not get to do anything...we get told she can do something, then she stays home and does nothing. I mean, come on! Even your average shounen action will at least let the girls go to the fights and pay lip service to letting them participate about 50% of the time, even if they don't get to do much actual fighting.
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (Sanzo: HEADACHE)

[identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 06:07 am (UTC)(link)
Yesssssssss. And don't forget the related syndrome of historically-inappropriate names; if a book is set in, say, 1800s New England (or a serial-numbers-filed-off fantasy AU version thereof), but half your characters have names like 1990s Hollywood starlets? Whoops, there goes another dent in the wall...

(Cassie Edwards is horrible about this -- I spent hours and hours one increasingly-nauseated evening poring over summaries and sample pages on Amazon, and finding that it seemed like about 3/4 of her heroines had monikers better suited to daytime soap opera characters or stripper stage names than the various USAn-historical settings. It's still nowhere near as egregiously awful as her handling of native characters, but I must admit I took some small, snarky comfort in seeing she couldn't even write the white folks properly, either...)

[identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 06:08 am (UTC)(link)
The "early teens" thing is probably why I read the Shannara books for so many years. Then again, the first one I read (also my first fantasy novel) was the sole Shannara book he ever wrote about a fighter girl with a complicated past getting to be the main character(who was, you know, fighting entire islands of monsters and rediscovering and rescuing lost races while her cousins had the bad guys run circles around them), instead of the Generic Farmboys With A Special Destiny And a Token Hot Girlfriend. It created expectations!

[identity profile] madame-manga.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 06:22 am (UTC)(link)
I know whereof you speak. Dear gods of fantasy RPG land, I know -- because I was once a very young artist working for a now-vanished PC game company that had the AD&D license in the late 80s/early 90s. I feel your pain. At least I got to giggle over that crap on company time -- we joked that you could hear the dice rolling on every page -- and also pore over a lot of preliminary sketches drawn by Larry Elmore and Keith Parkinson, et.al. The artists that TSR had on retainer at the time were so much better than the writers, it wasn't funny...

[identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 07:47 am (UTC)(link)
I gave up on the AD&D tie-in novels after one "strong" female character (read: body like a Playboy starlet, with a name and gooby powers) was practising her swordwork. Outside her house. During the daytime. In the nude.

There's only so much written-for-teenage-boys I can take.


On the other hand, it was these novels that got an old friend of mine into reading; he was seriously dyslexic and had never previously found anything easy enough to read that wasn't aimed at small children. So there is some good in them. Somewhere.

[identity profile] the-z.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 12:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I've read almost all the Dark Elf books Salvatore's crapped out. The original trilogy was pretty common fare for fantasy novels. I forgave the characterization because I'm a fan of classic heroes and they're no more "realistic" than any you find in these top-selling fantasy novels. What I think makes Drizzt so OMG HE GETS ME T_T is his "tragic past".



Margaret Weis and Tracey Hickman couldn't have done it any better.

I can't say I disliked the books. I read them through to the end. I do like the Forgotten Relms world for some of the world construction (but then I've played table top in the environment). After the Trilogy, though, the "Drizzt is so crazyawesome you just don't get it" mentality got a little old. I mean, what does the guy do for an encore? An RPG character should certainly be retired to NPC status when they reach godlike levels. ;)
ext_7025: (Default)

[identity profile] buymeaclue.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 12:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Moooooooooooooooore!

[identity profile] keelieinblack.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 01:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Did you know there's an animated Dragonlance thing? I saw the DVD cover in Blockbuster the other day! Anyone here seen it? How bad is it?

If you mean the one that was released back in January, it is skin-clawingly bad. Not even in the so-bad-it's-good category, despite the fact that they managed to hire some pretty famous actors as VAs.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 01:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I think technically "Stephanie" and "Tiffany" are historically-appropriate names for the 13th and 14th centuries in England, and I read somewhere that it seemed some people around that time, maybe earlier, just named their daughters the masculine version of names like Stephen and the clergy writing it down in the registers feminized it*. But I'd still be thrown violently out of a medieval book if it featured the adventures of Tiffany and her sister Stephen.



* I don't know how they knew this, but it was a fascinating enough fact, whether true or not, that it's stuck in my head ever since.

[identity profile] txtriffidranch.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 02:04 pm (UTC)(link)
My sister's wedding featured what I suspect was half of TSR as bridesmaids, and after talking to a few of them, I'm not surprised at anything you're telling me. Of course, this was back when TSR was nothing but a workfare program for otherwise unemployable Marquette University English majors, and some of the geniuses with whom I conversed at my sister's reception were probably the main reasons why the Wizards of the Coast buyout came at precisely the right time.

[identity profile] txtriffidranch.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 02:07 pm (UTC)(link)
If it helps, I get grand entertainment from seeing the huge piles of remaindered Forgotten Realms books stacked up in front of the Skiffy section at the flagship Half Price Books in Dallas. What's even funnier is opening the front cover to see if these were books sold on remainder by TSR, or if someone lurved it and kissed it and wrote her name on the inside of the cover and hung onto it for years until the rent was due. I find a lot of the latter these days, and poking through the Gaming section is an archaeological expedition in its own right.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 02:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Looking back at that sentence, I see I failed to add in the qualifier "stereotypical" in front of "Native American", but I somehow expect you already figured that one out. XD

A little education is a dangerous thing, innit? Dragonlance was OMG AWESOME when I was in high school and the first year or two of college, but I lost interest in it afterwards.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 02:48 pm (UTC)(link)
There is good fantasy out there, I swear!

Unfortunately it's hidden by all the CRAP.

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 02:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't been over there in a few months to look, but I note that at my local Half Price there's lots of Forgotten Realms books ... but no copies of the ones starring Drizzt. It seems his fans haven't gotten quite desperate enough to sell them.

[identity profile] vestaka.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
ahaha excellent. Just the thing for my early morning.

And yes, I play the board game civilizations. Except after a while we turn it into some horrendously cut throat game where half of us team up with the other half and then start having raiding parties to get all the sheep or wood or whatever we're missing from the other half. *laughs*

The movie for dragonlance is pretty painful. And I *like* terrible movies of epic badness, but even I can't stomach it.

[identity profile] tammylee.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I think if I'd encountered him at a much younger age (say, 14), when I had not so much discernment in my literary tastes, I'd have been totally into him, fluffy little angstbunny that he is. Now, not so much.

That's it, bang on the head. At one point I gave away nearly all my paperback fantasy books because, while I had enjoyed them in Jr. high and high school, they just don't stand up to a discerning reader's scrutiny. I tried to reread Crystal Shard and had to put it away before all my memories were soiled.

It's like, in our heads we build up the ideas and presentation of the story to be better than the original and then when we go back we are hugely disappointed. The same thing happens with anime/cartoons; which is why I won't go out of my way to buy boxed sets of cartoons I liked as a kid. He-Man was awesome when I was eight; not so much now.

[identity profile] tammylee.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
An RPG character should certainly be retired to NPC status when they reach godlike levels.
Word!!!

[identity profile] telophase.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not terribly good at the board game, although I have fun playing. My best game ever was once when I played North Africa, and my resources were so poor that everyone ignored me for most of the game. I quietly built up my technologies without anyone noticing, then at the climax of the game loosed the Barbary Pirates upon the Mediterranean. :D
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (STS Haru facepalm)

[identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com 2008-08-19 03:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Trust me, compared to some of the stuff Whines-When-Caught-Stealing names her heroines, the likes of "Stephanie" or "Tiffany" would often be a plausible improvement. I'm talking "Renesmee" levels of "you made that up five minutes ago, and with your tin ear you really, really shouldn't have..."

(Meyer at least has the excuse of writing in a modern-day settings where names can be anything-goes, and possibly the cultural influence of the Utah Mormon creative naming (http://wesclark.com/ubn/article.html) tradition...but so far as I know, CE's biography, story settings, and characters don't even give her that level of justification. She just has a gift for lousy, laughable names. And quite possibly a very badly-coded generator to name all of the Native folks; men are pretty much inevitably Sexy Manly Modifier + Sexy Manly Animal (usually predators -- hawk, wolf, bear, eagle, I think the only herbivores allowed are really big virile things like horses), while women are mostly Sweet Pretty Feminine Modifier + Sweet Pretty Feminine Animal (swans, butterflies, does) OR Pretty Natural Feature (stars, breezes, lakes). I will probably never, ever get over the bit in one of her books "honoring" my nation where her logic seems to essentially be "he's Hawk Clan so his name must have a hawk in it!". Cue uncontrollable fits of hysterical UR DOIN IT WRONG laughter.)

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